Course Conditions

[tarazarr]

I really enjoy reading the post by Lyle and Eric, they are very interesting back and forths, they are written very eloquently and and with allot of Political Correctness....Refreshing

There seems to be a bottom line here in back of everyones minds. And as always I reserve the right to be way off line, but I'll give it a shot anyways.

Is Tom Bass the "right" venue for the Texas State Disc Golf Championship Tournament...

Disclaimer: These are only my opinions

No... Tom Bass is no longer the right venue.

Is Tom Bass the "best" venue we have for TSDGC? Sadly.... it Probably is

Sports in general have a natural progression, as the athletes get better, the equipment gets better, more companies get involved in developing the equipment, the technology gets better, the sport advances and venues have to advance with it. It's natural progression and it never ends.

Many of these things and others have taken their toll on Tom Bass. Hurricanes have changed the landscape, the advancement of both equipment and athlete has marginalized the challenge of the distance Tom Bass provided to the top tier players. The Dragon has been castrated (for lack of a better analogy) and the courses lack the technicality that are now required along with the longer distances needed to keep the courses challenging to the top tier player. Not to mention the Wilmont sits on nut grass that is murder on the equipment needed to maintain it.

However it is a very big park, it has distance and it has 3 courses in one place.

Zipper mentions Spring Valley and Windwood as probably better courses, I believe Cedar Hills at Jack Brooks belongs in that list. All 3 very nice courses, in fact SV and WW are my two personal favorites and Cedar Hills is just to far away from Tomball but I was blown away by it none the less.

The problem with those 3 are obvious. You need 3 great courses together. Windwood is 1 course, Spring Valley is 1.5 courses, Cedar Hills has 2 but Gulf Meadows isn't Championship caliber.

Now TSDGC is in it's 15th year locally. The tourament is huge, prestigious and has earned mad respect and admiration, but in my opinion, it has lost "The Venue" aspect that I'm sure came with it at one time.

I liken it to the NFL. We all saw the Cardinals leave St Louis, the Browns left Cleveland, The Raiders left Oakland, the Rams left Los Angeles and the Oilers left Houston. Regardless of the love and emotional ties there are to many Houstonians towards the Astrodome, Houston knew they would never regain a franchise in that venue. The game had moved on.

In my opinion Tom Bass is never going to be what it once was. Is there still value at Tom Bass? Absolutely.. But I think it's time to look ahead, look to the future and prepare for it. If we don't, The name TSDGC may always be yours, but someone is going to step up elsewhere and put on "The Texas Tournament" that becomes "The Destination". It's natural progression.

I really don't want to see Houston left behind. For those who travel around a little, I think we all know we are currently behind the proverbial 8 ball.

[Smokin' Joe]

Originally Posted by tarazarr

I really enjoy reading the post by Lyle and Eric, they are very interesting back and forths, they are written very eloquently and and with allot of Political Correctness....Refreshing

That's why I posted the NEON light link for ERic.

[tarazarr]

I do want to make a comment on Windwood since Zipper brought it up in this thread. As I read and understand Lyle, you haven't been to Windwood yet and I just want to go on record saying, Windwood was not designed to be a championship caliber course and in my opinion it is not. What I wanted from Windwood was a little of everything. I wanted a little Moffit, a little Spring Valley, a little Oak Meadows, a little Tom Bass (17) and a signature Windwood.

Doug and others will tell you when we put in the course initially, I wasn't satisfied and I knew we could could do better. I wanted to get rid of a few repeating holes (4,5,12), remove a hole that sat too close to another (5) and add as much legs with challenge to the place as possible (2,3,4,11,13). I also wanted risk vs reward everywhere.

I went back out there one morning at sunrise to begin working and almost spiritually as the sun rose through the fog behind the big dead tree on #3, (that resembles a cross in the morning fog btw) it all came to me. I became re-energized at the clarity of what needed to be done on 2, 3,4,11 and removing 5 and putting in a new 13.

I almost felt a little like Noah (thinking to myself...Really? Do I have too? OK if you say so)...

So anyways back to work I went and in the end we've built a course that is very good and two holes (13,17) will still get better. it is not championship, but it is a challenging course for players from Rec to Open.

Dixon holds the course record at -12. and while that may say to some, Windwood is not all that, I will go out on a limb here and say I bet Dixon has logged more rounds at Windwood then any other player in town.

Lyle I hope you can make it up here soon, I think you'll find the place as fun and refreshing as the rest of us do.

[mattman]

Originally Posted by tarazarr

I do want to make a comment on Windwood since Zipper brought it up in this thread. As I read and understand Lyle, you haven't been to Windwood yet and I just want to go on record saying, Windwood was not designed to be a championship caliber course and in my opinion it is not. What I wanted from Windwood was a little of everything. I wanted a little Moffit, a little Spring Valley, a little Oak Meadows, a little Tom Bass (17) and a signature Windwood.

Doug and others will tell you when we put in the course initially, I wasn't satisfied and I knew we could could do better. I wanted to get rid of a few repeating holes (4,5,12), remove a hole that sat too close to another (5) and add as much legs with challenge to the place as possible (2,3,4,11,13). I also wanted risk vs reward everywhere.

I went back out there one morning at sunrise to begin working and almost spiritually as the sun rose through the fog behind the big dead tree on #3, (that resembles a cross in the morning fog btw) it all came to me. I became re-energized at the clarity of what needed to be done on 2, 3,4,11 and removing 5 and putting in a new 13.

I almost felt a little like Noah (thinking to myself...Really? Do I have too? OK if you say so)...

So anyways back to work I went and in the end we've built a course that is very good and two holes (13,17) will still get better. it is not championship, but it is a challenging course for players from Rec to Open.

Dixon holds the course record at -12. and while that may say to some, Windwood is not all that, I will go out on a limb here and say I bet Dixon has logged more rounds at Windwood then any other player in town.

Lyle I hope you can make it up here soon, I think you'll find the place as fun and refreshing as the rest of us do.

you may be interesting in this Scott, I have considered letting it go to a church:
http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php...ng_id=41540937

[gcrussell4]

Originally Posted by ERicJ

If you make these courses longer/harder you'll probably lose any casual/rec players that might be going there now. You've seen the reviews the Wilmont receives, for a course of such rich tradition it gets hammered as it is now. As you mentioned, multiple tees would be essential after a redesign to keep the lower level AMs and casual players coming back.

Just thought that I would throw out that I believe that one of if not the primary reason why the two Bass courses have gotten some of their horrible reviews is jealousy over TSDGC being there. Giving the Wilmont a half star or one star is pretty ridiculous by almost any standard, and those reviews were put in at a time when the annual, "TSDGC should move around the state" debate was ripping and roaring on the various message boards. The reviews were pretty much a way that a few guys were trying to show why Texas States should be moved.

To comment on the larger issue however, I think that I am in the camp that would support a complete redesign. I too live real close and play there a bunch and I think that there are definitely some things that could really improve the two courses, especially if we were able to utilize some of the areas of the park that we currently either don't use, or use only during the tournament. Obviously this TSDGC is too close and we need to stick with the status quo, but I think it could go a long way towards re-establishing some credibility to give the facility a nice make over by next year. I suggest that we consider making the Bass complex a focus this year for the club.

[bmugwump]

Agreed.....

[zipper]

Originally Posted by gcrussell4

Just thought that I would throw out that I believe that one of if not the primary reason why the two Bass courses have gotten some of their horrible reviews is jealousy over TSDGC being there. Giving the Wilmont a half star or one star is pretty ridiculous by almost any standard, and those reviews were put in at a time when the annual, "TSDGC should move around the state" debate was ripping and roaring on the various message boards. The reviews were pretty much a way that a few guys were trying to show why Texas States should be moved.

To comment on the larger issue however, I think that I am in the camp that would support a complete redesign. I too live real close and play there a bunch and I think that there are definitely some things that could really improve the two courses, especially if we were able to utilize some of the areas of the park that we currently either don't use, or use only during the tournament. Obviously this TSDGC is too close and we need to stick with the status quo, but I think it could go a long way towards re-establishing some credibility to give the facility a nice make over by next year. I suggest that we consider making the Bass complex a focus this year for the club.

I'm going to slightly disagree with you. Some of those 1s and 1.5s are earned... Sort of. I may have written this on the review there but the truth is to appreciate Tom Bass, you have to have a long game. When you play a long game, you can tell that the designers took this into account, the set ups make you work your long shots very carefully to get a good score. Yes, if you only have a 280 to 300 foot drive, the course just seems big and open, but it works the 400 foot to 500 foot players better than many courses I've seen that have similar resources. Even with that, the wind and flood damage out there has lessened this aspect of the courses. They aren't what they were even 3 or 4 years ago. And as I said, it has never been and will never be WACO.

At some time, if you want to have perspective on what it could be, you need to do a walk through with Jerry. He doesn't try and rebuild every hole, but what he does do is introduce about 10 redesigned holes all of which are champion caliber. They all have long drives that require accuracy to set you up for either a second drive or to have the correct angle on your lay up. The best aspect of this is that it changes how you play your game and becomes a better learning environment. You can't just think huck it, you have to think about angles.

Remember, Matt Hall said one of the best holes in Houston was 18 on the Willy - three routes, easy turnover, medium hyzer, hard direct line. You have to judge your game and the risk you're willing to take before throwing. You can do a lot of that at Tom Bass simply by utilizing the few resources there.

Take the tourney course last year. There was a big open hole across the parking lot at the shell. You had, to my recollection, three shots, lay out safe and work down the grass. Play long with a skip onto the green (and hope your skip works). Play very long and take a risk of going out long. For a Pro these shots are all in play, not so much for an am, but still, even for a big open hole, you had to think some instead of just huckin' hard and walking down.

[duffyskin]

i myself am in the 350-400ft range and i hate playing the wilmont especially. add the rough terain and you have a course that i play maybe once every 5-7 years. even when i lived right by the course i still preferred macgreggor or even the bayou. in order to draw champian calaber play then you obvoiusly have to have a good long course. so personally i think the set up for states is pretty decent with the 2 courses being so different. hopefully everyone stays in perspective as a group and no one or few persons get stuck trying to help and it only makes things worse. ive seen so many good hearted people try to take on a project,even trash pickup,only to be thwarted be the parks people.

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by gcrussell4

Just thought that I would throw out that I believe that one of if not the primary reason why the two Bass courses have gotten some of their horrible reviews is jealousy over TSDGC being there. Giving the Wilmont a half star or one star is pretty ridiculous by almost any standard, and those reviews were put in at a time when the annual, "TSDGC should move around the state" debate was ripping and roaring on the various message boards. The reviews were pretty much a way that a few guys were trying to show why Texas States should be moved.

But if you read the slamming reviews they back up their ratings with legit justifications. If you're being completely objective the half-star "Dude" from Austin was probably a bit harsh. The two one-star guys were relative noobs to the sport and I think one of them may have actually been trying to review Powell.

Despite that, the concerns they raise are/were legit. Most of the time Bass (especially Wilmont) is poorly maintained, filled with long open holes, and at the time they played was poorly marked with outdated signs, distances and maps. When Jessica & I played Wilmont our first time (Jan '08) it was a day long ordeal wandering around open fields of tall grass searching for tees, baskets, and discs.

[LOU18132]

Originally Posted by duffyskin

i myself am in the 350-400ft range and i hate playing the wilmont especially. add the rough terain and you have a course that i play maybe once every 5-7 years. even when i lived right by the course i still preferred macgreggor or even the bayou. in order to draw champian calaber play then you obvoiusly have to have a good long course. so personally i think the set up for states is pretty decent with the 2 courses being so different. hopefully everyone stays in perspective as a group and no one or few persons get stuck trying to help and it only makes things worse. ive seen so many good hearted people try to take on a project,even trash pickup,only to be thwarted be the parks people.

If the Wilmont or Powell turned you to stone? Wow my second round of disc golf ever was on the Wilmont course. It totally changed my world. Just let me know that I had a lot of improvement to make in this game. Why would anyone be scared of a disc golf course. Play up or stay down.
Too many Pussies, make for pussy Disc Golf, come on play the game as it was meant to be played

And there are three course for States, Duffy.

Most of the time during the year you cannot play the Wilmont, as it was designed, parks does not mow. That has to do with the ratings, not just distance, It is a long course and will teach you to throw long, what is wrong with that? Most courses in Houston demand you throw 350' or less., how does that improve your long game, I don't have one so I can't answer that. Just trying to help the players with game, or wanting to get better.