Course Design Discussion

[tarazarr]

Thanks Lou.. I'd love to come up next time I'm up north...

I'm going to agree for the most part with slowmo here. I don't think every hole has to separate the top third. The course should be challeging enough where over the course of a round, a few players, rated equally, in say a group of 10, having a hot round will separate themselves. But the group should stay tight, meaning random trees that require luck, not skill, aren't really the deciding factor and shouldn't be there. Tight lines are fine IMO as long as there is a defined legitament line, that when hit properly doesn't result in the disc or ball being unable to continue safely into and or thru the next section. Having to split 2 trees with no legit continuation because it's just random is silly IMO. Having to split two trees, with a realistic line to continue is fine. Not hitting that line is unfortunate but not bad design.

I do believe luck has it's place in the game. You never hear player complain about getting some good tree love on a bad throw, but a touch of bad luck on an otherwise decent throw??? You'd think the world had it in for him... I think it's ok to have spots where you must hit the correct line or else suffer the pain... As it's ok to have spots where even a bed rip finds that elusive local route and leaves you just fine...

[ChaseTheAce]

going to have to agree with Eric on this one

it's a really simple idea. a good/challenging hole should reward a great drive and punish a bad one. if a player throws a bad shot off the tee then there shouldn't be a routine upshot to the basket for a 3.

great example would be hole #8 at Spring Valley. tight line tunnel shot on the left side and a bail out shot to the right. the hole gives the player a thin line for success on the left side if a well played turnover fairway disc or turnover sidearm is thrown. if the player kicks an early tree, he or she may find themselves looking at a couple upshots before carding the typical 4 or 5. the safe line to the right side is just a putter to the gap or mid around the corner, followed by a short upshot with a putter, and then an easy putt to card the 3

[ThePatrick]

Originally Posted by ChaseTheAce

going to have to agree with Eric on this one

it's a really simple idea. a good/challenging hole should reward a great drive and punish a bad one. if a player throws a bad shot off the tee then there shouldn't be a routine upshot to the basket for a 3.

great example would be hole #9 at Spring Valley. tight line tunnel shot on the left side and a bail out shot to the right. the hole gives the player a thin line for success on the left side if a well played turnover fairway disc or turnover sidearm is thrown. if the player kicks an early tree, he or she may find themselves looking at a couple upshots before carding the typical 4 or 5. the safe line to the right side is just a putter to the gap or mid around the corner, followed by a short upshot with a putter, and then an easy putt to card the 3

You mean finesse 8?

[ChrisMacG]

I'm with Eric on this one too. Score separation is something that course designers need to think about when they are setting up holes. The problem is that a hole that separates a Rec player isn't going to separate the Advanced players.

Take hole 17 on Cedar Hills; it's the shot over the pond to the basket on the hill. For Rec players that far side is a long way off and a big risk. That water shot will separate the rec field. Now an Advanced player should be hitting the other side without issue and maybe 1 in 10 will miss because they're having a bad day. A hole that separates Open players is going to average higher scores for the lower rated players (5 on Cedar Hills for example).

As a course designer you have to think about the different skill levels of players and create holes that test each of the different groups.

Plus you have to make it fun.

[ERicJ]

Originally Posted by tarazarr

I don't think every hole has to separate the top third. The course should be challeging enough where over the course of a round, a few players, rated equally, in say a group of 10, having a hot round will separate themselves. But the group should stay tight, ...

But a tournament is not intended to identify only the top few players. You need to think about the entire field, or at least those that are going to "cash" (top 1/3 (Pro) to 1/2 (Am)). At the end of the day you want a mostly accurate ranked list of players from the best-of-the-day to the worst, not just the few who had hot rounds.

[griff]

Originally Posted by slowmo

You know, I have seen these discussions for years about the design of disc golf holes and how they should have a "spread" of scores. Being an avid ball golfer this theory makes absolutely no sense to me. Par is the score a GOOD player is supposed to shoot...IE a "scratch" golfer should shoot par.

PGA ball golf tournaments are 1000+ rated players IMHO should shoot anywhere from 4-6 under to 4-6 over par on a given course, depending on how well they are playing that day.

if i shoot par at mac g or moffet, i'm pissed, 54 on the willy is a different story. wonder how tiger would feel about a 27 at green caye, a 9hole pitch and putt in dickinson.

[ChaseTheAce]

Originally Posted by ThePatrick

You mean finesse 8?

yes, for some reason i typed 9

[slowmo]

Originally Posted by ERicJ

Lastly, "par" in tournament disc golf... Unless you show up late for the start of a round and are carding "par+4" scores: par is completely 100% irrelevant, it does not matter.

Par is completely irrelevant in ball gall also. At the end of the day a player cards a 70, not a -2. It's a means of keeping score easier for the TV audience so that they can compare someone who is 16 holes into the round and one who is 2 holes into a round.

[tarazarr]

Originally Posted by ChrisMacG

I'm with Eric on this one too. Score separation is something that course designers need to think about when they are setting up holes. The problem is that a hole that separates a Rec player isn't going to separate the Advanced players.

Take hole 17 on Cedar Hills; it's the shot over the pond to the basket on the hill. For Rec players that far side is a long way off and a big risk. That water shot will separate the rec field. Now an Advanced player should be hitting the other side without issue and maybe 1 in 10 will miss because they're having a bad day. A hole that separates Open players is going to average higher scores for the lower rated players (5 on Cedar Hills for example).

As a course designer you have to think about the different skill levels of players and create holes that test each of the different groups.

Plus you have to make it fun.

I agree with you Chris. These are both good example holes.
Hole 17: Adv/Open players probably do not get seperated to much on this hole overall. The pond isn't that great of a factor for this division and other than that it's wide open. However in the Rec division, you'll probably see some seperation here, most will lay-up infront of the water but still it's more than just a pitch up to the hole from there, the hole requires 2 pretty accurate shots from this group. add the wind to the mix and the putts are no longer gimmes for this group either.

Hole 5: is a hole that will probably separate each group (Rec-vs-Open)even further. Also it should seperate within as well. Since it requires much more accuracy added to the distance to be in a good position for your next throw. I'd expect to see a 1-2 shot swings possible in open scores here and 3-5 shot swings on this hole alone in the Rec division. It's easy to get into trouble and stay in trouble

I like holes that have landing zones.. Like WW hole #2 (which btw Chris you described pretty accurately in your earlier post) you need some distance after negotiating a fair line, not wide open but fair... but you need to land it in a certain area to have a good look and then you need an accurate up shot. Hole 2 doesn't see a lot of birdies outside of the Adv/Pro div. For other divisions, par is a solid score. Bogeys are pretty common

Ridiculus tight lines take away that "fun" factor you mentioned - which i agree is very important.

[ChrisMacG]

Originally Posted by tarazarr

Ridiculous tight lines take away that "fun" factor you mentioned - which i agree is very important.

After playing Timber Lane on Saturday I have to say that some tight fairways can be fun. Hole 8 out there is a short hole (158'?) with a very tight fairway. I managed to nearly ace it and took a 6 the second time through (couldn't miss a tree). Hole 7 is also pretty tight and great fun. There is a path through the trees to the basket but it's a hard path to hit perfectly and this makes the hole challenging. On most of the holes at Timber Line we saw score separation; Billy and I had different scores on 6 of the nine holes each time through and we have the same rating.

Both of these tight fairway holes were short. I believe this makes them more fun for players rather than a 400' tight fairway. A short tight fairway can separate players just as effectively as a longer one.