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#231
08-22-2011, 09:42 AM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
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#232
08-22-2011, 02:44 PM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
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#234
02-20-2012, 12:38 PM
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Sliding scale discussion from Facebook (part 1 of 3)
Discussion started on Facebook Feb 16, 2012. Reposted here for posterity.
Jim Kelly The Pro sliding scale is not working for OPEN players in Houston. In 2010 Higher Power Open had 8 players in OPEN and the payout was 1st $171 2nd $108 3rd$90 The sliding scale for HPO 2011 had 19 players in OPEN the payout was 1st $170 2nd $115 3rd 90 This sliding scale turns off out of town and in town pros... At a glance it is a false representation of a deeper more profitable pro field. Chris MacGregor Interesting way of looking at it. We haven't really heard a lot of feedback of this nature. Obviously the top prize was less, but in HPO'11 there were a lot more players taking home cash. Doesn't that factor in to someone's decision on what course to play? ERic Jubin 2010 HPO 1st place 40 points 2011 HPO 1st place 95 points Jim Kelly Pro players that I have talked to where interested in the idea, "free extra cash from the Am's" but this did not happen. The MA1 players who are not interested in donating to the open field are playing MA1 to score plastic! Business decision for an MA1 or below should be get plastic at tournaments, and play with pros at mini for 10$ Jim Kelly @ eric points lol Chris Vandagriff Ur scared ur gonna get beat by an 897 rtd player Derek Lang The part about MA1 donating cash to Open is good with me  Chris Vandagriff Just kiddin buddy, I really don't know how I feel about the sliding scale, last year as an playin pro it worked out well, really don't care either way this year Chris Vandagriff ?"As an am" Jim Kelly @ eric what do c-tier points do for a Pro Jim Kelly @ griff "aka skip" all tournaments with an ACE pot works for U!!!!!!! Susan Macaluso Help him loose his sponsorship. Chris Vandagriff To be honest , from a greed standpoint, I can't calculate how many players would not be playin open if not for the sliding scale, but with a deeper field and roughly the same payout for the top spots there is the added comfort of still cashing even if I didn't play that well Chris Vandagriff And yes, me likey ace pots! :-). $ Susan Macaluso You've started that college fund, right Griff? Jim Kelly @ Griff, the calculations are above on my original post. Jim Kelly Whos idea was this sliding scale entry? Chris Vandagriff Dixons Jim Kelly @ Skip, Try again... Chris Vandagriff ?:-) ERic Jubin IIRC the MPO sliding scale entry fee was first implemented by Craig Gangloff at the Seneca Soiree A-Tier. Jim Kelly I know who came up with it but who brought the idea to Bird shot and pushed it? ERic Jubin I presented the idea to Birdshot. And BTW, tournament points get you World's invites... I would have though you'd know that. Jim Kelly Since you thought this idea was so great to present it to BS. Then why are you not signed up for OPEN and supporting it? Chris MacGregor I think a lot of the ams take a look at the course and make the call on playing open or not. On a course like MacGregor we see more interest from the Ams playing up. At DOC4 the course is designed to challenge the Open field and most of the ams are staying put in MA1. ERic Jubin @Jim: Not that I need to justify where I spend my money, but I have played MPO in several events and made my donations. Also, I don't know of a requirement that anyone pitching an idea has to think the idea suits themselves; I mean if that were the case there's all sorts of good ideas that would never see the light of day. There's clearly a population of Houston AM players that are finding this to be a viable option for them. If top cashing payouts are equivalent, more points are earned, and as Griff pointed out: the payout is deeper so you can still cash on a off day, then what's the downside to a Pro player? Is it the fear of losing to an Am? Susan Macaluso Points, smoints. I've never heard of anyone not being able to go to Worlds if they wanted to. Urban Legend, IMO. ERic Jubin @Susan: word is that they expect NC to fill this year. Whether or not that happens on invites only will remain to be seen. Susan Macaluso It would be a first, right?  Susan Macaluso All the girls get one.  ERic Jubin I don't know, didn't Pro Worlds in CA fill last year? Susan Macaluso Who cares? Patrick Brogdon You want my $20 or not Jim? I'm never going going to give you 50-70. $20 maybe. But not with an attitude of ungratefulness. Which broke are you this week, hurt or money? Jim Kelly @ Pat your being hypersensitive. I have no attitude or ungratefulness that's why I sat back an analyzed this new sliding scale for a year... The SYSTEM (sliding scale) is what I am reporting on I'm just looking at the NUMBERS, and the feedback from other Pros. Jim Kelly @eric, HELLO "top cashing payouts are equivalent" you have proved my point the "SLIDING ENTRY" has not made the PRO payout any better, that is called a FAILED idea... B.S. PRO payout is known to be low and this did nothing for it. Jim Kelly Points if your a PRO and your worried about points don't go to WORLDS... ERic Jubin @Jim: who told you that the sole purpose of MPO sliding scale entry fees was to make the Pro payout larger? ERic Jubin @Jim: and again I will ask you: "What is the downside for a Pro?" Chris Vandagriff who of the lower rated players that play open would still play open if it were full price? this is a poll. Chris Vandagriff how about players that have played up and cashed would have to "bump up" in entry scale every time they cash?. and yes that means it would cost ME an extra 10$ Jim Kelly @Eric: The downside, its keeping the out of town pros away. ERic Jubin Are they scared of losing to an 897 rated player as well?? Chris Vandagriff everyone is scared of you brad Jim Kelly 897 is the new 1000! ERic Jubin How many out-of-town Pros were showing up at Birdshot events before MPO sliding scale? Jim Kelly Very few, they are still waiting for the kinks to be SLOWLY worked out... Jim Kelly ex. 15% out of pro/am winnings Patrick Brogdon What kinks? Jim Kelly ex. payout depth Susan Macaluso Might just be easier for you to travel Jim. Patrick Brogdon Also I'm as far from sensitive as you can be. I don't care. At all. Period. But bigger open fields at every touney that we've used it at speaks volumes to the support for the few local pros we do have. People are willing do give their money to an even smaller odd that they may get anything in return for it. I greatly appreciate your view on the situation, but I also appreciate the view of the people who patron our tournies month after month. Points at birdshot tournies for pros this year help you also earn the chance at a sponsorship that will pay your entry fees at a few tourny's next year. Food for thought. If its worth it for you then I'll see you Saturday. Patrick Brogdon Payout depth? So 50% vs the 40% currently? ERic Jubin An actual comparison of real numbers, not just a "glance".  ERic Jubin It's too bad this whole interesting discussion is on Facebook where it'll scroll off into oblivion in a day or so. Jim Kelly Birdshot runs a nice tournament for AM/local Pros please don't take my post as BS bashing on the effort and dedication of the bird shot crew. I'm just giving the feedback from other pros that are not going to BS events. Patrick Brogdon Btw 2010 had sliding scale too. Jim Kelly @Pat 30% to 33% Chris Vandagriff this is what i'm gettin outta this, the sliding scale entry has made payout deeper, kool , thats a bonus.... but how can we make payout bigger too? ERic Jubin Raise the entry fees. ERic Jubin @Patrick, yeah I thought the first sliding one was the Sep-10 LINKS one... so I guess don't remember if the Oct-10 MacGregor one was or not.... Patrick Brogdon Hpo 2010 was. I played with Matt hall. Told him if he played I'd play up Jim Kelly @Pat I just used Higher Power Open as an example that had regular and sliding Patrick Brogdon We can't do 30-33% per the pdga. Get them to change it and we'll definitely consider it if that's way out pros want. We just don't add cash at every tourny which is what out of town pros want. We run to many to do that. Now, what we want is a place to encourage more locals to become pros. We want a culture that nurtures that. So if you want to get the word out about your lessons, consider a banner sponsorship of the tour 12. Your name and contact info will be on a banner at every event and mentions on the website and course guides. Win win. You get students and we get better players and a sponsorship that goes back to payout. Jim Kelly If BS is willing to change to the 30-33% I am willing to check into getting the OK from the PDGA. Patrick Brogdon Andrew sweeten is the tour manager. If attendance starts to drop or if you don't show up we reserve the right to change it back. Chris MacGregor There are pros and cons to the system obviously. The big issue is is that if we want bigger pro purses then we need sponsorship. Sponsorship is not what anybody involved in Birdshot has a passion for. We like to throw tournaments. Send some sponsors our way. Even better, sponsor the tour 12 yourself. We're hoping to have more B-Tiers this year and that means added cash. Chris MacGregor @eric - we can all continue this debate on Saturday. Susan Macaluso Back in the day....................raising $$$$$$ WAS part of the job of running events. Susan Macaluso Maybe I'll just do the parts of my job I like. Chris Vandagriff obviously sue, IF the people running the turny are the people profiting from the turny. the birdshot guys are not makin a living doin this. i am not criticizing at all, i'm thankful for birdshot! i also understand that it is what it is. Patrick Brogdon Raising money is part. but we don't want to just run 4-5 events a year just to run b-tiers. We like having an avialable monthly tourney, with as many btiers as we can handle sprinkled in. If we get more support from the community then we can raise that bar and run more b-tiers. Our tournaments usually have a lot of the same expectations of b-tiers, just not the added cash. If people respond well to our sponsors, then we stand a lot better chance of more of the tourneys turning into b-tiers. Like DD, with great support we can grow. We'll keep doing our part to provide quality run tournaments, and if the money makes itself available, then great!!! We'll have more and more added in.
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#235
02-20-2012, 12:39 PM
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Sliding scale discussion from Facebook (part 2 of 3)
Chris Vandagriff
Can u find a vendor too? :-) Jim Kelly I'm sure I can find a VENDOR who will add $300-$500 added cash to EVERY c-tier if BS would let more then one vendor not have a monopoly on the sales. Raising extra money with out doing a thing, problem solved... Patrick Brogdon I can only think of one place with a selection to outdue DGProshop, and they charge $3 more for online reg, so there's almost all of that. Should we go to $5 for online reg to get that number up too? We'd add it payout too. Susan Macaluso Nothing is for free Jim, and if you think so, I've got some beach front property in AZ I'll sell you. Sorry to poke at the $$, but this whole thread has been a good chuckle. Go to Austin to find the Pros, as Houston HAS ALWAYS been known more as an "am" kinda town! Let's all have fun this weekend! Be safe guys Patrick Brogdon Seriously consider the $100 banner sponsorship Jim Kelly. You'll get a lot of exposure for it and hopefully your students will rise to MPO soon and give you some competition. Then Austin can suck it. Patrick Brogdon That is also why we have two clubs that work together and not 6 that think they are all better than each other. Susan Macaluso ?6, wow didn't realize there were that many in Austin. Susan Macaluso I thought that was Dallas area. Patrick Brogdon Waterloo, Droppin Dueces, Disc til Dawn, off the top of my head. Patrick Brogdon WTF.(not necessarily separate), South Austin disc Assoc. Susan Macaluso WTF isn't what I'd call an organized club like Waterloo. Chris Vandagriff For the chains, team justice, Susan Macaluso And you're right, they have a bunch. Susan Macaluso the justices live in SA. Chris Vandagriff Ok , hott tour then Chris Vandagriff And have fun this weekend too sue! Dax Nutt No... Don't continue the debate at the tournament.... Keep debating here where I can understand. Lots of very good points being thrown here on both sides. Very interesting reading. Brad Allen I'm more than happy to pay the same amount as higher rated players in open. In fact I did for Victoria. Thankfully the sliding scale makes it more affordable for me to play with the best, which is what I wanna do. Playing up makes me a better player. Lotsa skill in this city, can't soak it up just playing mini's. Chris Vandagriff now im scared of brad Chris MacGregor I heard they have a contest for the post with the most comments. Keep it up everyone! Chris MacGregor Let's hit 100!!! Chris Vandagriff Just Chris Vandagriff Thinkin Chris Vandagriff The Chris Vandagriff Same Chris Vandagriff Thing Chris Vandagriff I have a belly button Chris MacGregor I have a navy. Chris MacGregor I mean navel. Chris Vandagriff Do you eat gravy from ur navy? Chris Vandagriff I mean navel ERic Jubin @Patrick: HPO 2010 was NOT sliding scale. My records shows I paid $55 to play MPO at that one. ERic Jubin Yeah, I remember HPO 2010 now... that was the one where you, C.J., and I all played up and donated in MPO while Griff & Jim entered MA1. Chris Vandagriff And then you both played int at am world dubs ? ERic Jubin #include jimkelly_capslock.h Find me someone who DOESN'T play their rating at a MAJOR. Chris Vandagriff U started it Chris Vandagriff Hell , I believe I donated to ma1 at that event Susan Macaluso Boys! Billy Gilbert Damn...I missed all this last night! Susan Macaluso And then there's the Rocket girl caddies, did you secure one of those Billy? Billy Gilbert Cathy WAS going to come out...but now that it looks like rain she made a hair appointment! A girl has to have her priorities! Susan Macaluso Smart woman. Kyle Jenkins Can someone explain all these percentages that are thrown around? what is the 30% stuff all about? I'm ignorant of behind the scenes intricacies of a proper tournament. Susan Macaluso I believe it is % of field paid out. Derek Lang @kyle, right now the pdga mandates 40% of the pro field gets payout, and 50% for ams, so you have 10 players in a division, 5 of them get something. It used to be 33% and many would like to see it go back that way Chris Vandagriff just somethin to think about,950+ rtd players pay full price and a ten $ increase to the other sliding scale entrants, that would produce a minimum of about 100$ extra per turny Patrick Brogdon I agree with the 950+ split. I wouldn't mind if we split it there. If my choice personally is to play(donate) to open I don't want to have to pay twice my normal entry fee to do so. It may turn away some of the lower rated players. Patrick Brogdon I really appreciate the feedback from you guys. Jim, Griff, Derrick it's extremely valuable to us. We want you guys to be happy. (without just handing free money) we are always open to suggestions and try to carefully consider all we hear. Chris Vandagriff And I agree with that, it was stated earlier that hou has always been an " am" city, there are quite a few players on the cusp of moving up and we could start now to change the view of our pro field, brad said he would pay a little more and I've talked to a few others that would agree to do the same. With just a minor adjustment of numbers I feel that we could get the payout up for the top spots and still have the payout depth. This would make it worthwhile for some out of towners to play and increase the payout and the quality of players even further Patrick Brogdon Brad will be paying more very soon, don't worry. Jim Kelly I got this off of PDGA Quote: Originally Posted by RhynoBoy Isn't there a minimum of 40% for Open? Does anybody regulate this? Are there any consequences for not following these rules? It isn't a rule, its a guideline. Big difference. Rules must be followed, guidelines are merely suggestions. Some Open players have told me they prefer a 33% payout (of course they are usually the ones that cash ). Jim Kelly Its in Birdshots hands now to change to 33% payout. Jim Kelly 0r 30% Chris Vandagriff after "takin' cash " awhile back i've gotten a new understanding of what i used to call "pros bitchin". i'll say this again , i play because i'm passionate about the game, but i've come to realize also that the word "proffesional" means something too. there is alotta time and practice and effort that goes into playin well and while i know i'm not gonna get rich off disc golf it can be profitable too. sometimes our (pro) views might be misunderstood as greedy but we are doin this to make money too.when i (we) see room for improvement and it gets ignored i can feel cheated out of cold hard cash, remember, we are playin for real money here that goes into my gas tank or to put diapers on mini griff, and i"lll also say it took "me" some thought to see where we could improve on this subject. i appreciate your consideration patrick and i just wanted to let y'all know where i (we) are comin from Chris Vandagriff i vote 33% Chris MacGregor It's in the PDGA's hands for anything less than 40%. Billy Koch @Jim - where is the link for the payout information - would love to get my hands on it so I can figure out our payouts for our Texas Deaf State Championship. Patrick Brogdon @billy- the pdga tournament spreadsheet calculates it for you. You enter division payout percentage, entry fee and added cash and it tells you what place gets what. Then you adjust for ties. Jim Kelly @Chris - ex GBO 34% payout MPO Billy Koch Tried googling the spreadsheet and was unable to find it. KNow where I can get a copy of it? Billy Koch NVM Found it! Patrick Brogdon @jim what year? 2011 was 40.2% Patrick Brogdon 2010 was 41% and 2009 was 40%. I don't feel like looking anymore years up. Billy Gilbert Shit...sounds like we should just blow off the sliding scale & go back to having 4 people sign up for Open.... Chris Vandagriff That's not what it sounds like to me Susan Macaluso If this area wants to "home grow" some better players, it sure seems like a solution, a compromise can be found. Show Congress how it's done. Patrick Brogdon So I emailed the tour manager instead of the heresy on the MB. Patrick, They are incorrect. 40% is the minimum payout for Pros, 45% for Amateur. Not a guideline, it is what the TD agrees to in the sanctioning agreement. Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables. (Not applicable for Leagues) Initial #9 (Field % Payout): * Thanks, Andrew Andrew "Big Dog" Sweeton PDGA Tour Manager Professional Disc Golf Association Derek Lang This is from Chuck Kennedy - "special payout structures can be approved by the Tour Manager." Derek Lang Saw that on the pdag board, not sure if it applies. Whatever happens, thanks to birdshot for running events and all the work it requires Chris Vandagriff Birdshot and Dg proshop do a great job for am turnys, very few places ive seen a payout selection like they have and birdshot gets things done more efficiently than most, Houston players should be grateful ,like u said billy we used to have only 3 or 4 pros per turny and now we have many more , is it really a big issue to start to grow the pro aspect of h- town? All I'm askin for is some consideration on a couple issues and if your not playin pro why would it matter to you anyway Chris Vandagriff That wasn't meant to be rude, sorry of it came out like that Billy Gilbert Hey man, I just keep the books...LOL...you're right, it doesn't matter to me & it's not up to me...that's why I've chosen never to be a TD...it's a huge pain! Basically it comes down to whatever Chuck & Tiff decide...they are the tourney masters! Billy Gilbert Although I was under the impression that they were just adhering to the PDGA guidelines....and I thought we WERE trying to grow the pro game by DOING the sliding scale....but I'll shut up since you guys think I shouldn't be saying anything about it since I don't play pro... Chris Vandagriff again sorry if that was abrasive, the sliding scale was/is good. kudos, but after brainstorming with a couple people i think it could be refined, just tweaked a little and have even better results. make a good thing better. :-0
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#236
02-20-2012, 12:40 PM
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Sliding scale discussion from Facebook (part 3 of 3)
Billy Gilbert
Understood...like I said, that's why I've always been content to do the grunt work...LOL! Jim Kelly @patrick- 2012 GBO Patrick Brogdon So... we cant do 33%. We're not alchemists, so making money from lead wont happen. Let's consider the issue of changing entry fees. I know that Griff and Sam fall in the category of the above 950 players that would have their entry fee go up if we adjust to the 950 all pay the same. The other group to hear from is the under 950 players. The y are the target market for the tiered system anyway right? why don't we have more than Steve McFarland and Brad Allen playing up everytime...Is it better to have more guys play with less payout total due to lower entry fees, or raise fees and risk not having but 2-4 guys like we used to . I know this is a sharp edged sword, so we are taking this very serious. What is our goal? That's what we need to answer. Patrick Brogdon Jim Kelly then they got special permission from the guy who above told me that we agree to 40% when we sanction. Jim Kelly Pool Divis# of Players Payout A Pool Open Men 88 Top 30 Open Women 12 Top 5 Masters 48 Top 20 Grandmasters 16 Top 6 B Pool Advanced Men 104 Top 20 Advanced Masters 32 Top 5 Advanced Grandmasters 20 Top 3 Advanced Women 8 Top 3 C Pool Intermediate 156 Top 25 Intermediate Women 8 Top 3 Jim Kelly DD GBO 2012 just an example it can be done Jim Kelly Stop taking 15% from payout and no sliding scale and you can keep it at 40% payout. Problem solved Chris Vandagriff I mentioned this earlier, how about if a lower rated player cash's then they move up one entry fee scale for future events? Or..... Giving lower tiered players the option of paying in at different increments that will also reflect in the % of payout they may receive . The rest will be spread accordingly. For example... McFarland pays in lowest scale entry and wins the turny, his payout would be whatever % of full entry he paid in, but all players would still have the option of full entry? Just some options Patrick Brogdon That's what mini's are for. If we did that, no one would show up. We'd be back to a large Adv, Int Field. Anyone under 970 would come show up and have a great time. Hmm... on second thought lets consider that. Patrick Brogdon So DD decided to try to make nice round numbers. They have chosen to go against the PDGA without approval. It's their choice. Brad Allen I have no problem with higher entry fees, and I can prob vouch for MacFarland as well. If I lose out on $, it's my fault, not the payout structure. Anti-baggers unite!! ERic Jubin GBO paying 16% deep in MA2...? :-O Better be one kick ass player pack. Chris Vandagriff @ Patrick, just to clarify , my suggestions would only apply to the sliding scale open div, if you were replying to me
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#237
02-21-2012, 10:49 AM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
Wow...that was the longest post ever!
 Just so you all know that we (Birdshot people) get 10% UP TO $100 for a C-tier...that's usually split 5 & sometimes 6 ways (this is all seperate from DG Pro Shop). The other percentage goes into maintenance funds. These funds go for buying things like paint, replacement chains, spray-paint for tourneys & yes sometimes even towards gas expenses if one of us is making lots of trips to ready a course for a tourney. These might seem like little things that probably most people don't notice but we have from the very beginning made it part of our mission to help maintain area courses when we can. I just don't want any of you getting the impression that we're investing in a fleet of luxury Birdshot vehicles on your dollars! When we started we asked Andi & Don if they would vend for us because we knew them & they are local....but most of all because none of us at the time (which then was me, Chuck & sometimes Mike Brockmyre) or even now was willing or able to invest in any kind of disc inventory for payout. Without Andi & Don there would be no Birdshot...end of story! We run tourneys because we WANT to & DG Pro Shop gets to supplement their business by giving AM players a great choice of payout to choose from. Every one of us Birdshot staffers have REAL jobs....Chuck & I started this thing up over four years ago so that we could play in PDGA sanctioned tournaments without having to necessarily drive out of town & spend hotel money, etc. to do so...and we figured there would be other like-minded players out there who would want the same thing. We were obviously right, considering the numbers that often show up to play. However, none of us really have much time to be sponsorship cheerleaders in order to drum up extra cash...and if that's what's keeping the pros away then so be it. Last time I checked the majority of players are AM players...and I'm not ashamed that we cater to them since they're the ones that usually show up to play! Once again there's my two cents....
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#238
02-21-2012, 12:26 PM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
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__________________
my bologna has a first name.....
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#239
02-22-2012, 04:06 PM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
MOD: moved the DOC4 specific discussion over to the DOC4 thread here:
http://hfds.org/vbull/showthread.php?t=1100
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#240
02-22-2012, 05:38 PM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
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Pros:
Cons:
This is observation, not criticism: Birdshot members are all Amateur players, and if they are happy with reducing some of the TD hassles, and all the Am. players (Birdshot members included) are happy with the Am payout, I can see why they're not in a big hurry to change things. And of course Andi & Don are happy with the arrangement, it's guaranteed sales for them. If the Pro players want things to be different, maybe they should be organizing events. But, the problem is if you want to increase pro purses, you have to either get real sponsors, or make money off the merchandise markup from the Ams. And if the Ams are happy with Birdshot events, it might be hard to compete.
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