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#241
02-26-2012, 03:31 PM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
MOD: Moved Gorilla Disc Golf discussion to its own thread.
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#242
02-26-2012, 04:59 PM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
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__________________
my bologna has a first name.....
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#244
02-28-2012, 01:03 PM
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Sliding scale discussion from Facebook Redux (part 1 of 2)
Discussion started on Facebook Feb 21, 2012. Reposted here for posterity.
Chris Vandagriff goin on a limb to reopen discussion about the sliding scale entry. please dont take this the wrong way , i am tremendously grateful for birdshot as a whole and individually. many thanks and more to come. but the sliding scale entry sucks in its present state. it worked for awhile but i feel it has served its purpose and run its course, i'm actually thankful for it . i feel a good compromise would be to have all players above 950 pay full entry, and have an option for >950 players to pay in at 50% but only recieve 50% of what they would have won if they happen to cash. these same players could still pay in at 100% and be eligable to recieve 100%. just a suggestion. Billy Gilbert Not my call (hello Chuck & Tiff!), but sounds like an idea to me! ERic Jubin @ Griff, PDGA sanctioning agreement dictates that payout is done per the PDGA Pay Tables, i.e. payout out depth and payout amounts. PDGA does not dictate entry fees, which is why the sliding scale is designed as it is now. Jim Kelly pay in 100% and recieve 100% to bad its pay in 100% and recieve 85%... Jim Kelly @jubin- GBO 2012 ERic Jubin @ Jim: when it's your name on the sanctioning agreement you can do what you want and deal with the PDGA. Billy Gilbert Jim, why are you stuck on this 85% thing? That's not always the case! ERic Jubin To paraphrase "The Princess Bride": Disc golfers have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. They think they should be able to play a game, produced and organized by another party and get back 100% of what they paid to play. How many other fledgling sports do that? It's that sense of entitlement that run TD's out of the game, and some feel will eventually ruin the competitive side of the sport. Jim Kelly @Billy - Im not stuck on the 85% birdshot is... The facts are BS runs a great tournament, but takes out 15% so pros don't like the tax. Then BS introduced sliding scaoe it brought in more am players but did nothing for the PRO players payout. The facts are other TD's do not do this (only a select few) its not about "entitlement". Jim Kelly Get the 15% from your vendor! Billy Gilbert I've posted this numerous times but I'll post it again....the PDGA allows TD's to take a management fee of 10% UP TO $100!!!! Depending on how many show up at a tournament we don't always even get that! When we were running the MINI series the first few years we took out 10% for our time & trouble & another 5% IF the course was in need of maintenance, which we put in a maintenance fund used to buy things like paint (for benches, signs, etc.), spray-paint for OB lines for tourneys, replacing missing chains, the string you were with me to buy when we did our first B-tier that time at Spring Valley....and yes, every once in a while to reimburse us for gas if we spent a lot of it going back & forth to the course to get it ready for a tournament. Billy Gilbert Hello, Wall..... Jim Kelly @Billy- get it from your vendor Billy Gilbert Again....this is why I like doing the grunt work & have continually opted out of being a TD! I shouldn't even be trying to address ANY of this since I've never once done a TD report or had to figure out payout, finances, etc. All I do is balance the checkbook when the statement comes in every month as far the money is concerned. Jim Kelly @Billy or any Birdshot leader- Why not get it from the vendor? Billy Gilbert Oh...and I guess try to make sure that none of us are stealing anything, which you (Jim) almost make it sound like we are! Billy Gilbert Why should the vendor pay for something that PDGA says it's okay to charge the players for...UP TO A MEASLY $100 AT A C-TIER? Jim Kelly Stealing I have never mentioned that.... BS clearly puts down when they take the 15% from the players. Jim Kelly Because they make all the money and are the ones who usually put it up Chris Vandagriff @ Eric, I understand, valid point, what's your opinion of the suggested compromise and is it possible to get special consideration from the Pdga ? Billy Gilbert Chris, you should be addressing this to Tiffany & Chuck....ERic, although a good friend to Birdshot & a consultant, is NOT part of the Birdshot staff... Billy Gilbert I just happen to have more time to spend on FB than our TD's do... Chris Vandagriff Gotcha billy, just lookin for feedback Billy Gilbert If ERic has the time to get in touch with PDGA to find out the answers to these & other fascinating questions on our behalf (or his) then cool.... Billy Gilbert I just want Jim & everybody else to know that any extra monies coming through our orginization go back into the courses & sometimes to sponsor other tourneys as well....WE STILL HAVEN'T PURCHASED THE BIRDSHOT YACHT!!!!! Jim Kelly BS seems to like complements but not PRO feedback 15% tax has killed the open field for BS tournaments. Im not the 1st person to bring this up... The proof is in the results im not just giving an opinion... Remember BS runs the best 15% tax tournament I have been to!!! Chris Vandagriff bigger issue here is the entry fee. Billy Gilbert I give up! Chris Vandagriff ok , here we go, how about doing away with sliding scale for the tc jester event and see how it works out? i feel that houston has enuff open players now to support a big enuff pro field. Chris Vandagriff And just to be said , this may bite "me" in the ass financially , I may end up in a spot where I would have gotten payout, but I'm willing to chance it to further the pro field as a whole.
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#245
02-28-2012, 01:04 PM
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Sliding scale discussion from Facebook Redux (part 2 of 2)
Chris MacGregor
Whew. Y'all have these long discussions when I'm in meetings all day. @Jim - I get the impression that you think that Birdshot is pocketing the UP TO 15% that comes out of payout. This is not an accurate picture of what is happening. We have to pay for any expenses related to the tournament. At Day-of-Course, for example, we had expenses well over $75 in preparation for the event. That covers paint, flags, water (bottled water in our coolers, not from a hose), score cards and more. Of that $75 only $25 was charged to payout; Birdshot staff donated the rest. Hearing you clamor for 100% payout would require that we, Birdshot, donate even more money so that you can have a shot at a bigger payout. How is that a better solution for me? In the past three years I've donated over $2500 and countless hours to Houston area disc golf courses and tournaments. I do this because I am able to and I want to grow the sport, and 95% of the players appreciate it. Your complaints about a lack of 100% payout just seem greedy to me. Which courses have you funneled some of your cash winnings back to Jim? It annoys me to hear this type of take-take-take attitude with so little give back to the community. Consider that Birdshot is a volunteer organization trying hard to provide Houston with quality disc golf events once a month. We'll keep doing this but if you expect us to pay all the expenses out of our own pockets just so that pros can have 100% payout then you're out of line. Also, I'm looking for a hole sponsor for the League City course Jim. Only $500. How about it? Jim Garnett As a former TD and a former open player, I feel the TDs should be compensated. I always paid out the Ams in retail value and used the markup to try and cover costs (like PDGA fees, local fees, printing scorecards and whatever else) to try and pay back the pro divisions at 100%. If there was sponsorhip, than great. If any TD is making real money for their time than I'm happy for them. If I covered my own entry fee, I was usually happy to do it. I'm now Masters age and can't possibly compete with the Open guys, and a sliding scale probably isn't going to entice me to play up. Jim Garnett If there's extra money from sponsorship or sales or whatever, the Open (and Women's open) should receive the bulk of that to encourage borderline players to play up. Paying big in protected divisions (whether age or am) encourages bagging. Jim Kelly @chris- Why not take it from the vendor? You don't lose out on any money, so all that typing and you keep avoiding the question... Why not take the 15% from the vendor? Why keep working for the VENDOR for free the vendor should be kissing your butt for all the hard work you and all of birdshot staff puts in. Seriously, I truly appreciate all the hard work, or there would be no DG tournaments in Houston. Chris Vandagriff lets not forget the initial point of this thread Chris Vandagriff while still considering other points Patrick Brogdon Jim we don't. There is kick back from them that goes into our bigger tournaments every year. We just don't put it in every tournament. We have consistently added $500 or more to our bigger tournaments, so sorry that the others have lost a few dollars. That $500 is not sponsor money. It's birdshot's money. Stop being negative and come volunteer. You'll be guaranteed cash and a vote in what goes on. Priceless. Here's your chance to positively affect the tournaments. We're all ears. Patrick Brogdon @jimG we always add cash to divisions based on entry fee so that it is proportionate to how much they payed in. We feel the same way. They are putting more on the line so deserve greater reward. Jim Garnett Patrick, I'm not on the same page. IMO, added money should go to pros, and Open heavily. Adding money proportionately to masters (and higher) just encourages good 40+ year olds to bag in masters. Adding proportionately to Advanced encourages bagging in advanced. The definition of Amateur should imply that they are not expecting to be compensated financially, they're playing for fun. As a Masters aged player with family obligations, I'm more than happy to play for each others entry fees. If someone my age has a 1000+ rating, they should be encouraged to compete in open to chase the cash. Patrick Brogdon It does end up heavily in the open division unless a large amount of masters players decide to show up. Them the amount of people pulls more to that division. Patrick Brogdon The only money we add to amateurs to cover the players packs. Payout added cash only goes to pro divisions. ERic Jubin @JimG: What is your definition of "bagging"? ERic Jubin @Billy: The 2012 PDGA Tour Standards document was updated to remove the "Maximum event management fee". So as far as I can tell now, as long as the minimum payout percentage is met the organizers can keep as much as they want. Jim Garnett @ERic, good question. Hiding out in a protected division when you can compete in open is a start, but it's a lot more complicated than that. Jim Garnett I played in a tournament a million years ago when Nate Doss won intermediate and his score beat the best score in Advanced (same course). He was bagging, but it hurt him. In a perfect world, scores wouldn't overlap between divisions, and the best score in Am. (or age protected) would take home less than he would if he'd competed in a higher division and scored the same. I know that's not realistic. Jim Garnett Ok, simplified definition: When score X gets the player a higher payout in any protected division than the same score would in a higher division that person is bagging. Jim Garnett Yes, that contradicts what I said earlier about Nate. I'm allowed to change my mind. ERic Jubin So you're saying that a player "playing their rating" or "playing their age" can still be "bagging"? Jim Garnett Can be, yes. The system is broken. It was really awesome back when the Masters age was 35. Jim Garnett I'm reversing my stance again. Nate *was* bagging that day, however the system worked. He hurt himself by playing in the protected division and received a smaller (prize) pay-out. I Need to revise my definition. Billy Gilbert @Eric - I should be staying out of this whole money discussion altogether....I never do the TD report or any of those calculations...Chris TD's so seldomly that he needs help from Chuck & Tiff plugging all those numbers in. I had said that we don't always do 85% payout & that it's sometimes more, but Chuck has said differently...that's why I'd rather he or Tiff address these issues, but they're not very active on FB. Hopefully one of them will see the "accusations" on the HFDS thread & address them there. Chris Vandagriff billy, i'm not accusing anyone of any thing except maybe making a mistake, i know you guys pretty well and i'm pretty sure "that" is way beyond you. i do want to know why the #'s dont match up. Chris Vandagriff if it's my mistake and i overlooked something, i sincerely apologize, i'm also sorry peoples feelings got hurt . Billy Gilbert I'll be talking with Chuck later....I want this stuff addressed as soon as possible myself! Tired of reading about it...LOL! Chris Vandagriff yeah man, if its my math error, sorry. if was to recoup funds, ok. extra expenses for the turny? prolly shoulda been done differently but ok. im gonna play some golf :-) Billy Gilbert All...Tiffany found the error...please see post on the DOC thread on the HFDS message board! ERic Jubin @Jim: GBO2012... apparently just because they advertised it doesn't mean it's a done deal. Read the thread on the PDGA forum http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=36189
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#247
02-28-2012, 01:27 PM
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Pay to Play Open Facebook Poll
Discussion started on Facebook Feb 21, 2012. Reposted here for posterity.
Chris Vandagriff would you pay full entry to play open in a birdshot turny?
Need an option for "depends on the field" only. That's me Chris Vandagriff heres the point of this poll, i feel that houston has 10 or so pros that will pay full entry to an event on a regular basis, if we keep the sliding scale would it only be to benefit the player who "occasionally " wants to play up? Jarrod Belk I am right there with you Kyle Jenkins....course and field Patrick Brogdon You think ten? I think there may be ten, but four or five of those don't play regularly. I hope that's the case. If this poll goes well we'll gladly switch back. The personal comments go a lot further than anonymous voting. Patrick Brogdon So I saw the tab on who voted. Nvmd the anonymous part. Jarrod Belk Look at it this way...the day of...MA1 top guys would have done well in Open...but, it is all dependent on who and where. Derek Lang Ill always play in open, the only factor for me on whether im playing or not is the course and maybe weather Patrick Brogdon So far 3 guys that usually show up that would. Let's see where this goes. Chris Vandagriff dixon, rennie, hemmeline if its worth it, soete,jim k, few others on the cusp that i think a better payout would entice Chris Vandagriff mcfarland Chris Vandagriff another aspect is this, payout gets bigger and some austin and dallas pros might make it down, enticing some other lower rated players to play up for experience. i might be shootin myself in the foot but better players and stronger comp will make me a better player too Chris Vandagriff sam Chris Vandagriff trapp Patrick Brogdon So... You're going to help us fundraiser a little and we'll work on spreading out a little to the c-tiers as soon as we have a good nest egg for the finale? Sound fair at least? Dixon shows up pretty regular along with Rennie who's in the same boat with you, Sam and trapp. Jim hasn't shown up since....? And Hemme is done with the pdga. Soete shows up to a little under half. So it's there, but if money is what is going to bring them out, then we will put any fundraising brought in by you or Jim directly in to the open payout. We'll even spread it to the C-tiers if you want. There... How's that for listening. Adam Case I'll start to come down again! Patrick Brogdon They can't handle the "truth"!!!!! Chris Vandagriff I asked for consideration on full price entry, didn't ask for added cash Patrick Brogdon You'll get both!!!! Patrick Brogdon See what I did there? Listened to two people at once. Patrick Brogdon What about a trophy only entry griff? We could figure out an option for people to play up for little to no money and they would not be given any cash or prize even if they played well enough. If its the same price as say Rec, I'd consider that. But then guys like Brad and Stephen would choose to pay the full amount just to have the chance at cashing (or opting for merch). Patrick Brogdon It would be like a trophy only option. Patrick Brogdon Maybe we call it the open sponsor option. $20 and you get to play open. It may skew the percentage places of payout though. Hmmm. Chris Vandagriff a way to make both parties happy? could it be? i wouldnt be against it. but like you said, skewing the payout may be an issue Patrick Brogdon I'd have to check with the tour manager. We like to be good compliant TD's. Since we're not world champions we can't just change the rules to fit how we want to do it. Chris Vandagriff again , my main objective is to get the payout up so as to build a stronger more legit pro field for the future . gettin some lower rated players into open for the experience is gonna work toward that goal as well if we can find a way to do it without sacrificing the integrity of a "pro" division Chris Vandagriff and thanks for listening buddy Patrick Brogdon Tiff says a trophy only option is easy to do. We can try just one entry fee at jester but if it's not supported we'll have to go back to the drawing board. So what I'm saying is that the underground good ol boys club needs to start working on attendance. There's 21 holes so plenty of space to support all your buddies. Chris Vandagriff gotcha, travis powell is on the mend and will be playin again soon, paul williams and some other part timers will help out i'm sure. not to mention andy w, adam m and dax who are all passionate about the game and will be playin in the near future. i also have to mention that i really didnt see the untapped potential of a full entry fee until jim mentioned it and i took some time to think about it fully. Chris Vandagriff 'playin open in the near future' Patrick Brogdon Part of that is the hall/Dixon are just going to take our money mentality has faded. Thanks again for a civil discussion. We all want our sport elevated. I want you guys to make more money do I can make more filming it and commercials for disc company's. Passion can sometimes cause tension though. Let's hope the "am town" moniker is a passing one. Chris Vandagriff Agreed , as well, and agreed! Billy Gilbert The age protected field can't have the sliding scale, so if I play Open Grandmaster I'll be paying full price...only done that once so far though (it IS $15 more than MG1!)... Jeremy Richards This may seem "duh" to ya'll but as a player of 6 months, I have wanted to get into tournements. I would not want to pay 10 dollars to a field where I would have no chance in winning anything but laughing ridicule from opposing players. If I am mis-understanding the topic here, I am all ears to learn and play. Jarrod Belk @Jeremy Richards...This one would not apply to you unless you are playing in Open. They are discussing the scaled down entry fees for lower rated players in Open at Birdshot tournaments. The other divisions don't have an adjusted scale for entry. Jeremy Richards I understand.. Like I said, new and wanted to make sure and learn. Billy Gilbert Hey Jeremy....this is all about the "pros" and their payout. Please be assured that at our tournaments there is a field for every level of player....from novice & juniors on up! When I first started playing I thought the same thing..."I suck! Why would I want to play in a tournament?"...then I found out that there ARE divisions where other people suck just as bad as I do (LOL!)...but I love to play & the competition is fun (word to the wise....don't ever let it stop being fun!...some of the pros seem to have forgotten that!)... Chris Vandagriff never any laugh or ridicule my friend, if anything i'd offer encouragement. we ALL started somewhere Doug Sullivan didn't the sliding scale begin to get MORE people to play open so the pros would stop complaining about the low payouts and have larger numbers in the open division? Seems like this is a circular problem. People cash so much early that they have more plastic in boxes than they know what to do with so they play open, and accept the 8$ for finishing in last cash position and now they are stuck playing MPO for the rest of their life. Then they stop playing tournaments because they are 915 rated and getting beaten soundly consistantly. BS introduces the sliding scale and they begin to play more again. Now the open field is complaining that the payout is to low because so many people are on the sliding scale. Removing the sliding scale will make those people stop playing again and it's back to square 1... Chris Vandagriff not true, look at the poll results above. sliding scale was introduced to encourage players to play "up". it worked. the result is that houston now has a big enuff "pro" field to support a full price entry.all those issues have been addressed aboved Chris Vandagriff also, even if you accept cash in open but have a player rating below 970 you can still play am div's , aside from pdga majors Billy Gilbert I'm very curious to see what happens at Jester if we decide to NOT use the sliding scale....we haven't discussed it as a group yet, but it wouldn't surprise me after all of this that that's what will happen...stay tooned! Chris Vandagriff consider the poll results when you do discuss it, half of the regular pro field is represented here, jim and dixon pay full anyway . the only votes the other way dont play open anyway or dont play turnys at all Chris Vandagriff and thanks billy Dax Nutt I would pay full price if we had more 990+ rated players playing. Chris Vandagriff Gimme about a year. :-) Dax Nutt I believe you'll get there in less than a year. Derek Lang Ratings updates for 2012 events: Mar 20, May 15, July 3, Aug 14, Sep 18, Oct 16, Nov 20, Dec 18 Jeffery Leonard i'd play pending on course. as long as my putting continues getting better. thanks Griff, new grip already getting better. WATCH OUT PROS! LMAO! Chris Vandagriff glad i could help Chris Vandagriff this is what i gather, me ,steve mc, derek, trapp and brad will pay full price. i'd be willing to bet Sam and rennie and cory ( if theres not a pro masters field) will do the same. add in dixon, jim, hemmy, and the part timers( no offense) alex hughes, paul williams , soete. this is your pro field , supported and represented. Chris Vandagriff forgot travis powell, and factor in any " incidentals". Jarrod Belk If it means anything after the 400 posts on here if I was gonna play in Open I don't care about the extra couple bucks I save on the sliding scale. More money in means more money out.
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#248
02-28-2012, 01:37 PM
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Re: Pay to Play Open Facebook Poll
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#249
02-28-2012, 02:35 PM
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Re: Suggestions for Birdshot
I agree Eric, I think your point is addressed in one of my last post. The players that play open now and don't pay full entry have expressed their willingness to do so. I'll still play regardless , just wanted to have a some supporting evidence for my (our ) suggestion
__________________
my bologna has a first name.....
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#250
02-29-2012, 03:39 PM
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Re: Pay to Play Open Facebook Poll
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In PDGA lingo, Open means not-age protected. MPG, MPM, etc are not open, they are age protected. FPO is women's Open, but truly it's gender protected.
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